Question about "Il était une fois, un roi et une reine qui vivaient dans un château"

Question

Is there a grammar lesson that explains the use and/or necessity of "qui" in this sentence? Merci.

Cécile Janty-Davies · Accepted Answer

Hi John,
'Il était une fois' can be translated by -
Once upon a time there was/were ....
or 
'There once was/were ..........'
...a king and a queen who lived in a castle'
which might make more sense to you.
No grammatical rule, it is just the way stories (particularly children stories) start in French....
Hope this helps!

Cécile Janty-Davies · Answer

Hi John,
'Qui'  is 'who' in this sentence, and very much necessary in French as in English.
Here is the KwizIQ lesson regarding this particular relative pronoun -
https://french.kwiziq.com/revision/grammar/when-to-use-qui-to-say-who-which-or-that-relative-pronouns
Hope this helps!

Alan Graham · Answer

That doesn't fully explain why you would use a relative pronoun here. You don't use one in the English translation:

Once upon a time, a king and a queen lived in a castle.

You could say:

Once upon a time, there were a king and a queen who lived in a castle.

I think the point is that, although we're generally told that "Il était une fois" means "once upon a time", it's really "once upon a time there was".

"Il était une fois" = "il y avait une fois"

John M · Answer

Yes, Alan has nicely explained the reason for my question.

If the following French was written I could understand the use of "qui":

"Il était une fois, il y avait un roi et une reine qui vivaient dans un château"

But with no "il y avait," for the reason Alan explained the necessity of "qui" doesn't seem obvious.

Alan Graham · Answer

I think I also answered your question - or is it still unclear?

John M · Answer

Alan: Yes, I did understand. Thank you.I was just trying to make a little more explicit how an English-language understanding gets represented in French in the hope that one of the French experts could provide an explicit grammar road map that shows how "once upon a time there was" (whatever the appropriate expression in French is") and "qui" are combined.You and I have both pointed to "il y avait . . ." Obviously that's incorrect, but I would like to know the specific grammar grammar reason for what it's incorrect and why "Il était une fois" possibly incorporates the idea of "il y avait".

John M · Answer

Correction: You and I have both pointed to "il y avait . . ." Obviously that's incorrect, but I would like to know the specific grammar for why it's incorrect and why "Il était une fois" apparently incorporates the idea of "il y avait".

John M · Answer

Dear Cécile:Thank you. Now I understand.I also asked another question on or around the same day, 18 May, but have yet to receive a reply. Unfortunately I don't see any website function to locate one's own questions so I cannot tell you where it is and I have forgotten myself.

Anne Davies · Answer

Or maybe "There was once" : tho why the comma is needed in the French sentence, I don’t understand. Maybe it’s just a longstanding tradition ?